Official Luthiers Forum!

Hi guys,
i havent posted for a while i was very very ill over the summer so i have had other comitments.
anyway i know mad rose has been a hot topic recently with with this stuff about gibson and martin( lets try to keep this about the wood not induviduals however i think both gibson and martin have acted quite responsably given the situation at the moment)
but i was researching the madagscan rosewood chapter for my book (its just part time project i started whilst in hospital) and i have been becomming increasingly concerned about the stuff.
not just mad rose itself but the entire madagascan eco system.

any way watch this vid and make up your minds for yourself but we have to ask ourselves wheather it is worth using this wood under the current circumstances.
just becouse a wood is not cites does not mean its not endagered and mad rose (all 16 comercial types of it) are in serious danger as is the fauna and flora that relies on it to survive.

i love mad rose its one of my favourate woods but it has given more than a few sleepless nights recently.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzWNPHBRrAc

Joel.

Joel, dude, buddie pal,

Your right.

Our practice of forestry leaves much to be desired.

But is the nature of the beast.

And we are going to do exactly what our ancestors have done for eons and eons of time.

When the harvest is over. We gonna leave this planet...well a few of us are.


So now ... role that up and smoke it.



blessings
the
Padma


PS: for all you LBAR's here's a concept worth stirring the pot over, or you all wanna go back and babble about bondo?


NOTE: This post has been sanctioned by the Prophets Official Office of Sanctions and as such is fit for human consumption.


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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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The hard part is convincing folks that Endangered does not equal Good...

Unfortunately, Hard to Get = Large Upcharge = Higher price = Perception of Great!

The worst thing in the entire world for stopping demand is the Usual Sales Pitch.... "Well.. I do like it, It is Really Good stuff.... You know.. Super expensive and hard to get ahold of... but Really Good Stuff none the less...."

Contrary to:
"Well, I think it is vastly over-rated and the supply is in pretty serious legal question... My opinion is that Cardboard makes a much better guitar. If you really want that stuff, please get it from someone else!"

Sadly, it seems like #1 wins out more often than not...

Consider if White Oak got an Upcharge 2nd only to BRW... "Well, sure, it's common in lumberyards, but not in the High Grades I use. That stuff is very hard to find and only a few people cut it the way I need it. It makes a tremendous guitar, but it takes a giant amount of work to get all those pores filled.... but I really believe it is well worth the work!"

Thanks

John

As Padma said .You might as well roll one and smoke it ,cause you ain`t gonna change corrupt governments and the desire for money.As far as boutique guitar builders are concerned we use very little of what is being used.Does this make it right ? Not necessarily.We each have to walk our own paths,and decide what we can and can`t live with.But Hey Joel I`m glad your feeling better and back with us.
James

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James W Bolan
Nashville Tennessee

How come we are always worried about exotic rain forest over seas and not our own resources? We wipe our and wrap our mcdoanalds double cheeseburgers with more spruce in a couple of days then the whole instruments community worldwide use probably in a year....Mike

In Brazil, they are burning the rainforest's so they can grow soy to make bio-fuel. This is all being done with the approval of their government. They don't buy the fuel from the Arabs like we do. The burning of reainforrest's has increased over 80%.
What the musical instrument industry uses is nothing, compared to what they are burning down. At least the wood we use, will be preserved for generations to come. Madagasscar is even more corrupt than Brazil. Should we feel remorse for what they are doing to themselves? I hope to build some guitars out of Mad Rose and BRW so I can keep something to remember them by.......

So, should I not go ahead and build guitars out of Madagascan rosewood I bought about ten years ago when it was cheap? ($75 a set for mastergrade) What on earth would be the point of that, it's not going to put the tree back on Madagascar, to end up simply being burnt down in slash and burn agriculture or to be logged to line the pocket of some Government official.

Or maybe I shouldn't use it because in the words of Blackadder, "it's time for someone to make a completely futile gesture"!

Colin

_________________
I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Hi Colin,

Interesting, I've faced the same quandary myself. In my first "stab at" lutherie, 25 to 30 years ago, I bought what was then touted as the finest materials in terms of sonic quality. So, I now have 10 elephant ivory nut and saddle blanks. For me, there's no question that I won't use it, and have been (so far) unsuccessful in selling it here (here in the US, and here on the OLF) for luthiers that do restoration work. Why wouldn't I use it? I don't want part of an elephant on my guitar, or on a guitar I give away, or on a guitar that I sell. In terms of the idea to go ahead and use it because the elephant won't come back to life if I don't, I note that huge piles of elephant ivory have been burned after being confiscated from poachers. There were arguments on both sides: sell the ivory and use the money for elephant conservation, or burn the ivory and (hopefully) reduce the allure. They also knew that making an item more scarce makes the remaining stuff more valuable, but hoped that with international pressure to stop the trade in elephant ivory, the demand would dwindle. And, it has.

So, I've got one master grade BRW (small) guitar set that I bought from LMI 30 years ago. ($135, IIRC) And I will probably end up trading it to someone rather than building with it, because (even though I do know is is a remarkably sonorous wood) I just don't want to be part of the culture that promotes BRW as a magical species for lutherie. I am also convinced that the difference in overall sound of a guitar made with any of dozens of dense, hard species would sound the same to 99.99% of human ears. I don't want to promote the allure and mystique of BRW by owning a guitar made from it. I would have the same quandary owning a Madagascar Rosewood set right now (I don't), even though it isn't CITES I listed (yet.) Regardless of the dollars invested then or the value now of the one BRW set that I have, I also believe the very best use of that material is in a musical instrument, and that it would be terribly wasteful to burn it. See my quandary?

As James said, we all have to walk our own paths, as individuals. As an individual, I do feel nearly powerless against any organized efforts (cartels, governments, syndicates, etc.) or mass movements (slash-and-burn peasants, etc.) But I do wonder how much power we who work with wood have collectively - our buying patterns, our word of mouth, our advertising. I suspect that collectively, we have a lot more power than we may believe at first blush. And I'm not above making a completely futile gesture to try.

Dennis
p.s. Hope it doesn't sound like I'm wagging a finger at you, Colin. I'm not. And I know you'll take your Madagascar Rosewood set and make an heirloom instrument from it - the finest use of the wood. Your post just stirred me.

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Dennis Leahy
Duluth, MN, USA
7th Sense Multimedia

Thats scary and sad stuff. However I agree that the lutherie contribution to this is probably a negligible fraction if that (hand made anyway). As per the spruce, although all ecosystems are fragile and precious, I think it is a lot easier for a temperate soft wood forest to recover than a tropical rainforest, the biodiversity in such places is second to nowhere and I hate to think how easily it could be disturbed.

Dennis I'm afraid that I do think you are finger wagging, but that is your right. And yes, I do believe that your deciding not to build a guitar out of the BRW you bought 30 years ago is a totally pointless futile gesture, which seems to be a salve for your conscience, but that is your right as well. Passing it on to another builder however could be construed as passing the buck, either build with it or burn it, at least then it will provide you with a bit of heat to make it's logging worthwhile.

I'm just starting two guitars from Madagascan that I bought years ago, but as it may offend your sensitivities I won't detail them on the TLC.

Colin

PS and yes I do use recycled ivory and tortoiseshell on my restoration work.

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

I do not which to speak for Dennis but i can see his quandary. He is a compassionate human who would dearly like to do the right thing. On one hand he understands the pressure his species has placed upon our planet's resources and acknowledges the damage caused to our environment by human activity. To use material so often held up as an example of that problem would seem hypocritical for one who openly speaks out to bring about change. On the other hand he also understands these materials are highly valued by those within the craft he loves and feels it would be wasteful, even disrespectful to destroy materials that are so highly prised by masters within the craft and robbing them of the opportunity of creating something truly beautiful.

To be honest i would resolve the problem by using the wood bought all those years ago when it was not considered hypocritical to do so and just accept that i was a man of my time when i made the purchase and things are as they should be but also accept i am a man of my time today and will buy no more. The ivory i would gift on to one who i know in my heart has a 'passion' to preserve fine art and accept that some times the greatest endeavor of mankind needs a little preservation too.

Cheers

Kim

I am not saying we should not use the stuff as said i myself have some stunning sets in my private stash and i i have sold dalbergia graveana and baronii before i fell ill.
i just just cant help being concerned about not just mad rose but mad ebony as well and the entire madagascan eco system.
i know that in general guitars make up for small percentage of deforestation but in the case of madagascar there are organised rosewood gangs killing people to get there hands on the precious rosewood logs (the same goes for brazilian mahogany) when i personly build a guitar from these woods i cant get that picture out of my head.
its not just the rain forrests that are being destroyed but peoples lives (yes i know madagascar is a dangerous place anyway but the rosewood mafia,s are real problem at the moment)
at the moment any dalbergia that comes out of madagascar has instant buyers lined in germany, china,spain and the states and as such there is a large insentive for these gangs to carry on with what they are doing.

if you have stock that you bought 30 years ago or any time before you knew of the situation then use it by all means use it you are not doing the cause any good by refusing to use old stock it but maybe think twice before buying in the future and look into alternatives instead.
as has been said at least we are building something lasting from these peices of wood rather than burning them (if a tree is burned or left to rot it realeases all the co2 it absorbed in its lifetime but keeps this locked in if made into instruments or furniture).

on the other hand if we start thinking like this about all woods we would fast run out usable timbers.
mac ebony,cocoblo,honduras rosewood and even figured maple (to alesser extent) are all woods that have been investigated by cites to some extent and are considered considered thretend by them.
a species has to be in considerable danger to reach even list 2 but the paper work and and resources involved in getting it there is staggering add to that the factors that a government has to cooperate with cites to get he wood listed means many woods just get on to the list,
any way here is a list of trees that considered enangered from the rain forrest alience you will find most of our favourate timbers there
http://www.rainforestrelief.org/documen ... elines.pdf

and here is and interesting article on the subject from a rio rosewood supplier (ironic hey)
http://www.madeirainc.com/exotic_hardwo ... ncreasing/

joel

It seems to me that if you want to protest the situation in Madagascar you would stop buying vanilla too. Clearly at the root of this situation is a corrupt government and price fixing of an economic market (vanilla).

Really, anything that is done without fixing these two areas first is futile. If everyone stops buying timbers the Madagascans will start selling pelts or some other natural resource that is close at hand, and the tragedy will continue on a new path.

The wholesale destruction of this land is tragic, but from the Madagascan's perspective, if it is between my children starving and cutting down some trees I am going to sharpen the saw.... we all would.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Anyone see Avatar? On Pandora, trees have roots that are connected to each other like synapses in our nervous system..Sigourney Weaver discovers this. Turns out to be a very bad karma to harm them....

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It's not the miles ahead, it's the stone in your shoe


In Markham,Virginia

yes i agree basicaly the climate in madagascar means that all resources are being exploited for the basic reason that people are starving there.
of course the government turns a blind eye when it means the diference between literealy life and death.
on ne hand you have the few forrest rangers getting into full on fire fights with loggers but from the loggers point of veiw they are just trying to survive.

the real culprit is the large corperations that are encouraging all this for a quick buck.
invariably it will be the same people who are managing the exports of most of the resources (ie a vanilla exporter will also deal in lumber).

there are no quick fixes to the problem as we live in age where we think our resources are disposable.
until there is a major paradigm shift in the way the human race as whole thinks this is not going to change.
i just feel we need to be aware of the situation so we can make an informed decision as to whether we want to use and hopefully by debating this we will a little step closer to changing our attitudes in regrads to natural resources (its a sad fact our children will probably never have the chance to use these wonderfull woods)

if we want to use these woods in the future we need to reserve them for the very best special prodjects at the very least (not to sayy all the guitars built by forum members are not special).

but as said earlier the rarer they get the more expensive they get and this only serves to push them into the premium market and therefore increases demand.
i think we will soon see a time when all rosewood no matter the type will command premiums like rio and this will only serve to increase demand.

J.

yeah i saw it over xmas in 3d it was quite spectacular but i couldent help thinking "wow imagian what the wood would be like from an alien planet with trees that size"

thats one point my karma right there

J,

(11 of my 13 house guests have now gone, so I finally have time to answer this)

I'd like to sort of work backwards through these posts and Kim's, and offer some 'from the heart' comments:

Thank you Kim, I think you know where my heart is, and clearly see both sides of my quandary. You'll find it interesting that my comments to Fillipo echo your thoughts.

Hi Filippo. The ivory that I possess, which I bought 30 years ago not only pre-ban but also under the hype (as an ultra-neophyte wannabee luthier) that ivory was "by far the superior material ever used for the saddle of a guitar and that other materials were all inferior", these blanks were literally forgotten by me for well over 20 years - and only recently discovered in the bottom of a box of stuff. So, this isn't something I've been mulling over for decades. As far as I knew, the only ivory that I possessed when I "woke up" to environmental issues maybe 20 years ago, was a string of ivory beads someone had given me (I used to make jewelry), and a very small carving of a lion that a friend had brought back from a trip to central Africa and gave me as a gift. When the message began to be spread about the slaughter of elephants for ivory, and when I was awake enough and expanded enough in compassion to want no part of it, I took the ivory items that I had, and I buried them, literally. Had I remembered the ivory nuts and saddles at that time (oh what a number cannabis can do to ones memory), those nuts and saddles would be buried in the same hole in McHenry, Illinois. But, I did not re-discover them until about 2 years ago. When I found them, I thought about what to do with them. Using them on my own instruments was not an option, but with the slaughter of elephants for ivory pretty much a thing of the past due to the effective international ban in trade of elephant ivory, I saw an "option B" for the ivory. Knowing that no new animals were being killed for the ivory, and that instruments with ivory were being restored, it seemed to me to be a "lateral move" of the ivory - no further slaughter, no further negative karma. By this point, I also felt that old ivory was the 'correct' material for restoring instruments like some of the old 1850's Martins. But even knowing that, it still is a bit queasy for me, knowing it is the prize for which an elephant was killed. I don't do restoration work (I'll never have the skill set), and so, in my heart, it either belongs buried in the ground, or on some instrument restorer's bench.

So, Filippo, your words got me thinking about this again, and I made the decision to give this material to a friend that does musical instrument restorations. (And Kim, we arrived at the same solution.)

The Brazilian Rosewood poses a different set of ethical problems to me. Unlike animals and animal parts, (I'm vegan), I do consider plants to be renewable resources, and not only do I not have a problem with using wood, I love using wood. But, I definitely have some ethical guidelines that are within the equation to determine which species of wood that I will or will not use. The clear and easy lines to draw are those species already listed in CITES I. So, no matter how good the deal, no matter how beautiful the wood, no matter how perfectly suited to lutherie, I will not buy any more BRW.

Although most luthiers probably understand that blindfolded, they could not hear the difference between ivory, bone, Tusq, Micarta, and jade, ask those same luthiers if BRW possesses some sort of magical quality that places it above all other wood species, in terms of tone, and whether or not they could discern, blindfolded, the BRW guitar in a group, you're likely to get quite a different answer. Way too many luthiers still place BRW in a category by itself, and perpetuate the mystique and false perception to buyers that the best sounding guitars are made with BRW. Strike one. I have a grudge against BRW for that reason, and if I make a guitar using it, and it happens to turn out wonderful, then I have helped to perpetuate the myth.

Probably the vast majority of so-called "pre-ban" BRW currently sold to luthiers is a flat out lie and is really from trees felled after CITES I. Strike two. If the CITES I ban on the trade of BRW had worked as well as the ban on ivory, and no new material was coming out of Brazil, I actually would have quite a different feeling about the use of the remaining true pre-ban BRW (such as the set I purchased 25 or 30 years ago from LMI.) Then, I would just roll my eyes at the misconception of BRW as being sonically in a class by itself when used as guitar backs and sides, and would simply use the one set I have without giving any thought to my inadvertent myth-reinforcing that could result in the illegal felling of more BRW trees.

I know these views are provocative among luthiers - I'm not telling anyone else what to do or what to think - I'm writing down my feelings. And, my feelings have changed over time, as I have. I went from being a woodworker who would have purchased any wood species I could afford, to someone observing a flat-out boycott of using any tropical rainforest species. Then, I discovered the Rainforest Alliance and their Smartwood program, saw that boycotting was not as effective as supporting the Smartwood program, and became one of the first in the US to start a company selling only Rainforest Alliance Certified Smartwood. I even sent a couple dozen boards of various Smartwood species to LMI, requesting that they consider selling it to luthiers as tonewood. So yeah, I've been passionate about this for a long time. Currently, I would not buy any species of wood from Madagascar, not just the Rosewoods, because there is an obvious ongoing environmental crisis borne of rabid greed. I know that my gesture is futile, ineffective, like removing a single grain of sand from a desert. But it is my gesture, that follows my conscience and my heart.

Hi Colin. Hopefully my explanation for my fence-sitting on whether I should use or trade my BRW set went further than just a salve for my conscience. If you still see my quandary as being that shallow, then of course, that is your right, but I am actually struggling more with the potential influence of BRW guitars (collectively) and their potential to create incentive for further (illegal) BRW logging.

Now in terms of the Madagascar Rosewood that you already have, and the guitars you plan to build with it, and whether or not those builds should be documented at the Luthier Community: First, let me say thanks for offering that level of respect, but unless you plan to make the saddle from Black Rhino horn, glue it together with hot hide glue made from Giant Pandas, and attach a strap made from Komodo Dragon skin, I probably would not be that sensitive. Secondly, the Luthier Community is as much your place as it is my place, and especially in terms of what you are sharing with the community of luthiers - your techniques, your aesthetic, your history - your contribution far outweighs mine, and it would be a shame if something I said here or there would negatively impact your sharing. At worst, I might respectfully disagree on a topic with you, or with any other member of any forum, but I do try to always show respect in any disagreement. So, please clear off your bench, get out the Mad Rose, and charge up your camera's batteries. Looking very much forward to seeing your next instrument!

Dennis

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Dennis Leahy
Duluth, MN, USA
7th Sense Multimedia

Komodo Dragon skin guitar straps! Now that is something to think about!

Joe

This argument/debate reminds me of the whole "e-waste" problem.

Should we all stop buying PC's, TV's and especially cell phones because
once their life is over they are illegally shipped to China where children
melt off precious metals over an open fire while being poisoned by mercury.

Every electronic item we buy adds to this problem. Yet we still buy them, and
mostly guilt free.

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

Like most things there is a middle road here and you can walk it if you avoid being sucked onto the materialistic merry-go-round and instead try to be more conservative. Buy a phone and use it and keep using it and using it until it won't make calls anymore, then it is broken so 'then' it is OK to go and get urself a nice new latest model phone. Not when there's a new colour, size, flip, slide, app, screen, button or tone, but when the phone is cactus, that's when it is OK. Same deal with all your other gadgets, you will find a million reasons to justify an up grade if you go looking and anyone of them such as mine is "too slow", "too bulky" "too Tuesday" will make you feel morally better, but if you are to be responsible about what you use whilst visiting the blue ball, then you need to ask yourself if what you have now is still performing it's core function adequately before you go buying the Gucci.

Cheers

Kim

If only the human race as a whole had that a responsable atidude we would live a much less streesfull world and it might just last a few years longer.

however you could say the same about guitars.
if an fsc pau ferro guitar produces adaquat results then do we really need guitars made from endangered "holy grail woods' like rio and mad rose.
especialy when the difference can be so subtle that average consumer would not be able to to hear the diference between a guitar from rio or one made from paduak by the same maker.
the subject about the tonal characteristics of diferent woods is also a tricky one as its ultimatly the skill of the maker that determins the tone of the guitar whatever wood has been used.
using rio will garuntee that your guitar sounds good but it will garuntee that it looks good and that is is ultimatly what many consumers see first,

j.

Ahh! but now you are talking about guitars Joel and there is nothing wrong with having one of them to go with each little number in your wardrobe.

OK i do see your point but your average 'hand built' guitar will be used and reused, repaired and re-used, re-sold and re-used and there is no children having their brains pickled into functionless porridge from breathing mercury fumes when melting them down.

Cheers

Kim

Yo, Kim, Joel

Every little drop helps. and eventually the polluting effects ( that would be change) of our evolving consciousness will eventually reach the galactic level and then what? Thats if

a) we don't change the direction of our evolution to sustainability
or
b) mother nature takes over, fries and freezes us as has been prophesised for this Kalpa.


But wait here a min. are we so arrogant to think that we are separate from mother nature? Hmmm...perhaps we fry our selves...just like too many rats in a cage....then what...the thousand years of peace will enter and again the prophecy of peace is fulfilled.

Me, I choose sustainability...by the way I do know of a grate deal on some BRW, if anyone interested.
Now don't that sound like a paradox.

Well yup. It is.

however lets not BS each other any more.

the time has come
We, you and me,
we be the ones we been waiting for
CHOOSE.

blessings
the
Padma

_________________
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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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"Tragedy of the commons" interesting read an germane to the discussion.

Link

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Cut to size.....Beat to fit.....Paint to match.

Indeed and most eloquently bought to the attention of lesser minds Link. We do learn something new every day if we look

Cheers

Kim